Ken's Recordings on Roland AT 900c - Mono or Stereo?

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Ken's Recordings on Roland AT 900c - Mono or Stereo?

Postby Hugh-AR » 27 Aug 2019 21:42

Ken,

This post is to continue the discussion about why your Roland 900c recording ended up as 'two-track Mono' and not Steeo.

Your original recording of Hey Look Me Over is here:

Do a right-click to open this up in a New Tab
http://www.tierce-de-picardie.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7968

Having said I thought it was a great piece of music, I then added:.

But ... (there's always a "but", isn't there?) ...

I would have preferred to have been in your music room hearing you play this rather than listening to you playing through headphones or speakers. Why? Because what I am listening to through headphones is 'two-track' MONO .. not STEREO. Now you may very well have had your brass section 'centred' (which would then have sounded towards the 'middle'), but you could tell as soon as the STYLE started that this would be a two-track mono recording. Roland would definitely have 'panned' some of those 'backing parts' to the left channel, and some to the right to give a stereo effect. When you play your MP3 through Audacity the two green bars for left and right channels run together. Here is the waveform of what is going on:

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As you can see, both channels are the same. It least you do have sound on both channels so you're not getting all the sound just from one side. If one was playing your piece on a device that only has a mono output (eg. from the speaker on an iPad, Tablet or Laptop) you wouldn't be aware of any of this. But as a musician, I never listen to music this way. My grandchildren do and they think everything they listen to is great! But then, they are not musicians.
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Re: Ken's Recordings on Roland AT 900c - Mono or Stereo?

Postby ken horton » 27 Aug 2019 21:57

Thanks Hugh. Your remarks have heartened me as I was feeling it was not as good as I could get it and should have tried again with a bit more concentration, but I am at a bit of a loss on the stereo bit, I have twin mono outlets into the Behringer unit and then a USB cable from that to the computer USB socket and I assumed that it was sending out and recording stereo, I know initially I did have a volume problem which turned out to be a faulty cable adaptor but I am afraid I am not very skilled with recoding and almost link it up and let it get on with it, I shall have to have a look at the Audacity manual to see if I am connecting correctly, but I do appreciate the criticism without it I would be plodding on in complete ignorance.

I had simplified the system for this first attempt, no technics keyboard supplying the backing just the Roland, the only thing extra was to pipe it through the Behringer but I could have run the USB cable direct and cut the Behringer out, perhaps this would have made a difference. I have to try it and see, as you say KISS is by far the best way. Regards Ken
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Re: Ken's Recordings on Roland AT 900c - Mono or Stereo?

Postby Hugh-AR » 27 Aug 2019 22:33

Ken,

I think you have given a clue by your statement, " I have twin mono outlets into the Behringer unit and then a USB cable from that to the computer USB socket".

I have looked at the Roland AT 900 User Manual and your Roland doesn't have twin mono outlets. This is what it shows in the Manual:

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And underneath it says, "Accepts connection of Stereo headphones."

Stereo headphones have a single 'double' jack plug. They never have two mono plugs on a single pair of headphones. So, although they don't specifically say it, I reckon that you actually have two stereo outlets to enable you to plug in two sets of stereo headphones.

So what you need here to connect to your Behringer is one stereo jack plug at one end to plug into your Roland; and two PHONO (RCA) plugs on the other end to plug into the Behringer.

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I reckon the other socket is for you to plug in a pair of headphones so you can listen to what you are playing on the organ while you are recording. If you weren't recording, then I reckon you could use two pairs of headphones and two of you could listen without disturbing anyone else in the house. Remember that the speakers cut out as soon as you plug the headphones in.

Of course the lead I mentioned above would be suitable for the Behringer UCA 202 or 222 which has a Phono input. If you have a Behringer Mixer then that needs two standard mono jack plugs, one for the right channel and one for the left. So then you would need this:

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Anyway, you can see from your equipment what sort of lead you need. The essence is to get a STEREO OUT from your organ and a STEREO IN to Audacity.

And I was also interested to see that your Roland organ had a USB OUT. So I agree with you that you could probably take the output from there into the USB of your laptop without going through an 'audio interface'.

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In this case you would need one of these at each end of your lead

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Hugh
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Re: Ken's Recordings on Roland AT 900c - Mono or Stereo?

Postby Rev Tony Newnham » 28 Aug 2019 06:16

Hi

The sort of stereo output from the keyboard appears to be what sound recordists term "pan Pot Stereo" - in effect a bunch of mono sources distributed across the stereo sound field. It's pretty common - most pop music is made this way, and has been for the last few decades since multi-tracking became common. Nothing wrong with it, and it probably sounds fine on speakers where both ears are hearing the sounds from both speakers. Listening on headphones is a different matter as each ear only hears the signal from one side of the stereo image (there are ways round that, but nothing simple). A touch of reverb might help the sounds to "spread" more, but ideally monitor of speakers if you're anticipating playback on speakers, and phones if you anticipate playback on the all too common ear buds etc. that seem to proliferate these days. At least check on both speakers & 'phones if you can. It is possible to get a good mix with headphones, but it takes a lot of skill & experience. Also, to some extent I guess we're stuck with the stereo field decisions made by the keyboard manufacturer and included in the style.

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Re: Ken's Recordings on Roland AT 900c - Mono or Stereo?

Postby Hugh-AR » 29 Aug 2019 00:01

Hi,

When you play your organ or keyboard you will have instruments set up which are 'panned' to the left or 'panned' to the right'. This is how you hear your instrument when you play it, and it's this 'panning' that is the stereo effect. There will be 'backings' that have been pre-programmed by the manufacturer to come from left or right; but also you may have 'voices' that you have set up to come from left or right. For example, if you have two different voices set up to play together they are easier to pick out if you have one coming slightly from the left, and the other from the right. This is why I say you need to make the recording of your instrument in STEREO. Just to hear those instruments coming from the left or the right, irrespective of whether your sound is coming out of headphones or speakers.

Ken .. from what you say you have taken your output from your organ from the single jack sockets No: 6 in the diagram below, that says Mono out Left, and Right.

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Not sure what these are, but I would have thought that these would give you a Left and a Right Channel using a double lead with single mono jack plugs at one end, one plugged in to the left socket, and one in to the right. The other end of the lead would also have single mono jack plugs and be plugged in to your Behringer Mixer.

Hugh
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Re: Ken's Recordings on Roland AT 900c - Mono or Stereo?

Postby Hugh-AR » 09 Sep 2019 20:40

Continuing with this, I got Ken to take the output from his Roland from the headphone socket (which we know is playing Stereo). But when he did another recording from this source it didn't make any difference.

So I next wondered if it was the Audacity program itself that was causing the problem, and maybe it wasn't set up with the STEREO option. I don't have the latest version of Audacity so my pictures may differ slightly from an Audacity you might have .. but the content should be the same.

I asked Ken:
Does Audacity say STEREO recording when you are just about to record it? Next to the Microphone symbol it should say Line In (BEHRINGER) and next to that 2 (Stereo Rec).

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If this is what yours is showing then I'm afraid you've beaten me as to why the recording isn't coming through as Stereo!

And Ken replied that his Audacity program was showing 2 (Stereo) Record.
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Re: Ken's Recordings on Roland AT 900c - Mono or Stereo?

Postby Hugh-AR » 09 Sep 2019 21:05

Ken had also asked me if, when he had sorted out a Stereo recording to replace the Mono one he had put up, could he replace the Box LINK in his original post?

So I sent this to Ken:
I think we have decided that it is not your Roland that is causing this mono/stereo problem. I don't think it would make any difference as to whether you took your output from the Roland from the L/R Main single jack sockets; or the headphone stereo jack. I reckon they are both giving a left and a right channel. If your Audacity is showing 2 (Stereo) recording then it's not that that's causing the problem. I reckon it's how you have your Behringer Mixer set up. You probably are taking your left and right channel via the two standard jack sockets, top left. Underneath that are a whole load of knobs that you can turn to the left or the right. These controls the amount of eg. treble, middle and bass. I have these set straight up to the top, as if I wanted more eg. bass, I would set that up on the organ, not on the mixer. The FX one (the red one) I have turned fully to the left.

But the one underneath that, at the bottom, which is marked PAN .. I have the left one turned fully to the left; and the right one turned fully to the right. This will put the left channel to the left, and the right channel to the right .. which is what gives you the stereo.

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Can you check this out for me please?

The other question you asked .. can you replace a Box Link you have put up. In short, YES. And you don't even have to 'change' the LINK to get the new piece playing instead of the old. Just make sure you give your new recording exactly the same name as the old one; then upload it to Box. Box will replace the old recording with the new one .. but will give it a number 'tag' .. for example, it will show as Hey look me over v2, and the v2 will tell you it is version 2 you are listening to.

And now Ken has replied to say that the only controls he changed after he had bought his Mixer were the controls for the VOLUMES. All the other controls were left as they had come out of the box. So that is why he was getting 'two-track Mono'. The PAN was putting all the left channel to the centre; and all the right channel to the centre. Problem solved.

Hugh

PS. I am told that if you download the latest version of Audacity you no longer have to download the LAME program separately to get the MP3. The MP3 option is included in the Audacity program now.
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