Working out the harmony (chords) for a piece of music.

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Working out the harmony (chords) for a piece of music.

Postby barwonfan » 28 Jan 2023 10:49

Who Would True Valour See.

https://app.box.com/s/3gbb4424tkrl2na45e4qdpmvspldaoxq

Click the above link to download the PDF of the music, which is showing below.

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I have been trying to work out the chords for the above piece of sheet music. I know that it is in the key of D, and that the first and last chord will be D. I also am pretty sure that somewhere along the line I have to play a A major chord, a Bm a Em and a G major Chord. But whereabouts do the chord changes occur ??? And is it just a matter of trial and error to hit upon the appropriate Chord at the right time.

I know a couple of pianists whose left hands instinctively gravitate to the correct chord, but I would like to know what their secret is. What upsets me is the fact that I am very , very familiar with the above song, having sung it , and loved it for at least 70 years. Any help appreciated,

Thanks, J.T.
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Re: Working out the harmony (chords) for a piece of music.

Postby Rev Tony Newnham » 29 Jan 2023 07:56

Hi

http://www.hymntime.com/tch/pdf/en/m/o/n/k/MonksGate.pdf

Clicking the above gives what I assume is Vaughan Williams original arrangement of what is in essence an English folk song. I would probably simplify it a bit!

The PDF should show below. If not, 'refresh' the page (maybe a couple of times).



Good luck with it.

Every Blessing

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Re: Working out the harmony (chords) for a piece of music.

Postby barwonfan » 30 Jan 2023 05:33

Thank you, Tony for sending me the Bass Line. Now, using that, I am using it to give me clues to what the chord will be. But, I am not out of the woods yet. I suspect that it will be some time before I can figure out the chords for this song.I am hoping that some kind member of the Forum will give me some tips, or even send me a cheat sheet with the words of the first verse and the chords Thank you again. J.T.
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Re: Working out the harmony (chords) for a piece of music.

Postby Rev Tony Newnham » 30 Jan 2023 13:08

Hi

Sorry - I assumed you could read music. I've found a version with chord symbols. If you let me have your e-mail address I'll send it to you. Be aware that it's a photograph of the page - just discovered my new (cheap) all-in-one \printer doesn't have a scan function!

The music is on Eb, but there are alternative chords that are in D.

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Re: Working out the harmony (chords) for a piece of music.

Postby Hugh-AR » 09 Feb 2023 18:59

JT,

You have brought up something I find very interesting. First, you have produced a script with the melody written as notes on a stave. There is no indication of any harmony. You have asked how to put chords (ie. harmony) to the melody.

Then Tony has given us an 'arrangement' with notes written on both staves. Playing the notes as they are written will give us a 'harmony' to the piece .. but no indication of what that harmony is as there are no chord structure names (as letters) written over the top. Harmony is expressed in chord structures, so if we can identify the harmony we are hearing and give it a 'chord structure name' we are on the way to identifying what that harmony is and remembering it.

I find it very difficult (in fact impossible) to 'identify' a harmony by seeing the written notes on the stave. For example, if I saw the notes written below, one above the other, on the stave ...

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... then that does not conjure up a harmony in my head. And I'm not going to work out what the 'note letters' are because I'm not supposed to do that when reading music, am I? I'm supposed to identify which notes to play directly from the positions of the notes on the stave with their corresponding positions on the keys.

But play those notes so I can hear them and that is a different matter! I can hear the harmony! It's a major chord! And if you had given the notes the 'chord structure name' of D (or even given me the 'lettered notes' on the stave ie. A, D and F#) then I would also have a harmony in my head.

The next thing that cropped up was what we mean by 'reading music'. I think that for most of us, 'reading music' means reading the melody line from the dots on the stave. We then fill in the 'harmony' from the chord structures written as letters above the melody line. When the sheet music is in this form we call it 'Busker Music'. Anybody who reads every note on the full piano score (bass clef and treble clef) has my admiration as they must have spent many hours perfecting being able to do this. And you had said that you still wanted the chord names, as presumably like the rest of us, although you can read a melody line of music you would have great difficulty managing to read all the notes on a sheet of piano music.

You asked the question on how to get the chords from the music, and somebody from the PSR Tutorial Forum suggested playing those notes in the bass clef and looking at your keyboard as that would tell you what the chords were. That is brilliant! Wouldn't have thought of doing that! So if I had played those three notes on the stave above, the keyboard would have told me that it was the chord of D. And it has done.

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And I would make a further suggestion. Why restrict your note playing to just the bass clef? If you move your Split Point up an octave you can cover the notes on the treble clef as well. But don't include any melody notes when you do this. This will then give you the harmony under the melody line.

Changing the Split Point

In MENU press the FUNCTION button.

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When the choices come up, choose SPLIT POINT.

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The SPLIT POINT is probably set to F#2 (or G2) by default.
Set F#3 as the split point.

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You do this by holding down the S+L tab on the right and turning the DATA WHEEL clockwise until you reach F#3.

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Now you can play some of those notes from the written music on both bass and treble clefs and see what the keyboard tells you the chord is. You do not have to have a STYLE 'activated' or 'playing', but must have the ACMP button ON.

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When you have finished, don't forget to set the SPLIT POINT back to where you had it before!
It's all about the music ♫ ♪ ♫ Organ: Yamaha AR80 & Keyboard: Tyros 4
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Re: Working out the harmony (chords) for a piece of music.

Postby Hugh-AR » 09 Feb 2023 20:23

Tony said, above:
Clicking the above gives what I assume is Vaughan Williams original arrangement of what is in essence an English folk song. I would probably simplify it a bit!

Food for thought! Seems to me that if you take a 'classical' piece (you can include Folk Songs and Hymns in this) which is played on a piano or church organ where the harmony is created by 'moving fingers of both hands' then the harmony of the piece will change with every note played. This is completely different to what we expect to hear when listening to 'pop' music, where the harmony can stay the same for several bars and only change every so often. On a keyboard we 'hold a chord down' and the harmony is created by the chord we play and not by 'moving fingers'.

I think the conclusion I have come to is that pieces like this (and I know it as "He Who Would Valiant Be') cannot be 'simplified' without upsetting the harmony of the piece.

Another thing I often do is to look for the sheet music with the chords on line. You may have to pay for it, but often this is not very much .. unless it's an 'antique' piece of sheet music ie. a 'collectors' piece.

Here below is the sheet music with chords that I have found on line.

      The PDF should show below. If not, 'refresh' the page (maybe a couple of times).



Or, click this direct LINK to the music, which you can download.
Do a right-click to open this up in a New Tab.
http://www.ar-group.org/Files/HeWhoWouldValiantBe.pdf

Hugh
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Re: Working out the harmony (chords) for a piece of music.

Postby Ron » 10 Feb 2023 00:02

This formula will eventually give you an idea of which chord will fit the melody. However you will be restricted to simple chords in the form of I IV V with a relevant minor. It will not tell you if it needs a diminished chord, maj7 chord, a sus4 chord, a b5 chord , a 9th chord, 13th chord, etc, etc. You will need a lot of time, patience and mental effort to find the true proper harmonic chord in most melodies. There is also the need to play the melody by ear if music cannot be read. The fact that it does not involve any knowledge of musical theory or notation makes it so much more difficult, IMO I should add. Fortunately, I have the ability to read both treble and bass clefs combined and play them with both hands having had 10 years of classical piano lessons when I was at school. I can only wish anyone undertaking the new method of composition, the best of luck and look forward to seeing some of your efforts.

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Re: Working out the harmony (chords) for a piece of music.

Postby barwonfan » 10 Feb 2023 05:46

Thanks, Hugh for posting all that. Really interesting stuff. I am very grateful and think that you must be "burning the midnight oil" to help others. I went into Function and changed the split point to F#3 as you suggested and ended up using Split Point F#4 and have been experimenting. I am slowly coming to grips with this chord business. J.T.
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Re: Working out the harmony (chords) for a piece of music.

Postby barwonfan » 10 Feb 2023 05:54

Thanks, Ron for your post to-day. Most interesting. Food for thought! Music theory is a very deep subject and I have just scratched the surface. I'm glad that I don't have to sit the exam. If I did the examiners would very quickly become aware of my shortcomings. J.T.
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Re: Working out the harmony (chords) for a piece of music.

Postby Hugh-AR » 16 Feb 2023 00:17

JT,

Here is another version, in F. This was in a book JohnT had.

      The PDF should show below. If not, 'refresh' the page (maybe a couple of times).
Different chord structure to the D version above.



Or, click this direct LINK to the music.
Do a right-click to open this up in a New Tab.
http://www.ar-group.org/Files/ValiantBe.pdf

Hugh
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